Power Plants and Nevada
8 Comments Published December 20th, 2007 in Southern Utah Talking Points and Questions.Color Country is a land of extremes!
One extreme is the extremely dumb idea of building yet another coal fired power plant just north of Mesquite, Nevada. I’ve documented this in Smoke Gets In Your Eyes.
But another extreme can be found right there in Las Vegas and, interestingly, the military is doing it at Nellis Air Force Base! As it turns out, the largest photovoltaic power plant was completed just this week at Nellis. According to Reuters, “A 14-megawatt solar farm covering 140 acres opened at Nellis Air Force Base near Las Vegas, Nevada on Monday. It will generate 30,000 megawatt hours a year and will supply about a quarter of the electricity used at the air base.”
Why can’t this example being set by the Air Force open some eyes in the rest of Las Vegas?
But, in truth, the US still lags way behind the rest of the world. According to Wikipedia, the Mildura/Swan Hill plant in Australia will generate over ten times the megawatts that our biggest and best can do. And we’re only in fifth place in photovoltaic power plants world wide with Australia, Portugal, Germany, and Spain ahead of us.
Wikipedia also says something else: “Under the terms of the Power Purchase Agreement, MMA Renewable Ventures, who will own the panels, is leasing the land at no cost and Nellis is agreeing to buy the power for 20 years at about 2.2 cents/kWh, instead of the 9 cents they are paying to Nevada Power. None of the $100 million cost is coming from the Air Force.”
Hmmmm … 2.2 cents versus “coal fired” 9 cents ???
(Hint: The Australian outback has a lot in common with the Nevada desert. Hint, hint.)
OK so we have a40 acres, owned by the Air Force and currently part of the base land? That is an assumption only as it was not stated.
The panel providers get access and use of it for 20 years, they are going to spend 100 mill, they will get paid 1.3 Bill sans operational expenses so take half of it away. They end up with a pretty sweet deal.
Using the figures you listed using the same solar system could replace that proposed 750 MW plant to be built north of Mesquite! Well if they could secure the other 62 square miles of land for it!
Not a bad trade I suppose. Here in Sevier we could get by with using just 2800 acres, well sans we have all these mountains that shorten the day so add a 30% fudge factor. Then we would not have to build that little 274 MW coal fired plant on 120 acres! Sounds like a great plan!
Oh and think the largest solar plant in the world will produce 15.4MW! And at only 420 Million $!
Dan Solar and wind are but an element in the power grid, but 100% of it could disappear tomorrow and the total energy production graph would hardly show a spike! That does not mean to ignore either of them, just put them in their place. Both can contribute but neither is capable of the demands we currently have yet alone those of the future.
When it comes down to it, a BTU is a BTU.
When you get down to it, you and I agree a lot. A BTU is, in fact, a BTU. And I congratulate you for your willingness to have a coal fired power plant in your back yard up there. It’s not a concession I’m willing to make however. (Especially for the “gain” of more flashing lights in Las Vegas.)
The thing that we agree on most is that, “Both can contribute but neither is capable of the demands we currently have yet alone those of the future.” Well said. In fact, that’s the main thing I would ask: the willingness of people to at least check out the advantages of alternatives.
I would question some of your statements. For example, “The panel providers get access and use of it for 20 years.” Ummm … Isn’t that, the Air Force gets access and use for 20 years? You make it sound like they’re going to sell it to China.
But the biggest problem I have with your analysis is that you seem to be a bit fast and loose with your calculations. Your message suggests that a solar solution will eat up most of Nevada. As the picture shows, this doesn’t consume an undue amount of the desert.
In fact, you calculated that somehow a 750 MW plant would require 62 square miles of land. I have no idea how you did that. Here’s my calculation:
(750 MW / 30 MW) = 25 ‘ The proposed Toquop plant will be 25 times bigger.
25 X 140 = 3500 ‘ The number of acres at the same rate used by Nellis for a 750 MW plant
3500 acres equals about 5 1/2 square miles. That’s a far cry from 62!
I don’t know how you got $1.3 billion either. But lets look at some comparison costs: We’re currently sinking AN ADDED $87.5 billion into the Iraq rathole. The new F-22 fighter program will cost Program cost $62 billion and each individual airplane will cost $137.7 million. Somehow that amount over 20 years doesn’t overwhelm me even if you can defend the calculation.
A 14-megawatt solar farm covering 140 acres …”
The size of current solar plant.
750 / 14 = 53.6 That is 53 times larger.
140 * 53.6 = 7504 acres / 640 = 11.72 sq miles.
(I knew it was late and my math skills are at best poor, 62 miles did not sound right to me either, my bad)
30 million KWH annually at 2.2 cents = 66 mil a yr * 20 yrs = 1.32 billion.
Land I assume is AF property which means WE the people own it and a private concern is going to get FREE use of it 20 years? Seems that the govt has been pressured to stop handing out free rent to the thousands of radio transmission towers around the country, the feds charge ranchers for grazing permits, gee they even charge you to drive a state highway through Zions NP! The citizens are eligible for and should get some rent. Oh and please do not misunderstand me, the project is indeed a overall win win and I’m happy to learn of it.
I’ve no idea of how much desert land is going for, but around Vegas I’d bet it’s a big time amount today. What would the cost be to purchase 7500 acres of it?
There is little need to infuse fighter jets, or cost of war, in a discussion about solar vs coal, the only commonality is they both cost money.
I’m actually more concerned about the 750 MW Nevada plant on my own valley than I am of having one in this valley. Why? Because the winds blow from the southwest to the northeast, and that makes me a down winder for that plant. Though I think that most of it will stay to the West of this valley it will be knows it’s there from time to time.
What I do not like about the proposed plant here is the current location, it sucks! As well it could easily be relocated to areas that it would not be an eye sore and actually reduce the valley and peoples exposure to any emissions that it does put out.
Thanks for pointing out my errors and providing a place for discussion.
Thanks for your reply again!
I was incorrect in my use of 30 MW as a divisor (I read the wrong figure in the news release). My bad there.
I continue to not see your point about the land use, however. Here’s an example from real life. The satellite company installed THEIR dish on MY roof and they charge me for the service. I don’t charge them rent for the use of my roof because I asked for the service.
Anyway … as long as we’re into math, They’re saving 6.8 cents according to the press release (2.2 cents versus 9 cents) so it seems to me that we the people will get a benefit of 4.08 billion over those twenty years. And all for the use of some desert land. (The photo demonstrates the hot and heavy demand for the land by the vacant land around the array.)
The real point, however, is whether we can afford to continue to build coal fired plants into the future, or whether we need a better answer. I think we desperately need a better answer.
Land use point clarification, (I hope).
Over the last 80 years or so many private companies have go to the mountain tops and built transmission facilities, they used to get permission by providing some of their services to govt. Some at $25 a year for long term leases and such. Somebody along the way oh say 30 years ago felt that was wrong and the govt should get more $ as the sites were increasingly used for commercial gain.
So those sites and such have been increased dramatically in cost to the users.
Ranchers used to graze their animals on public land for free, then that practice as well was stopped. Today a grazing permit is valued very high, forest or desert. Ranchers as well actually invested most of the improvements to insure water distribution for their livestock. Worked with the BLM and Forest service to build and maintain them as well as other projects to improve the range. Nothing wrong with it, the animals eat the feed, the rancher pays the govt money for it and keeps the water flowing and fences in repair.
The ranchers still make money.
So the only real point is that commercial enterprises using govt land “normally” are required to pay rent for such.
You pic I think taken from a point on the air base looking east I think. I’m not sure but it appears to contain only air base facilities. If one turned around they could easily see the sprawl that is Vegas. Did you know it used to be 8 miles of desert between Boulder City and Vegas? Today it’s nothing but houses. In almost every direction sans north, and even that is changing a bit has exploded with such developments. I’m sure that much of that has to do with Nellis sitting as sort of a crown to the north for Vegas, it’s not exactly a bedroom community friendly place with a bunch of jets running around all day and night.
I don’t know who owns the land north of vegas but I’d bet one could not get 7500 acres of it for free use so they could sell billions of $ worth of energy.
Wait Stop, hold the phone. These large scale solar systems only put out when the sun shines. Coal, Nukes, Hydro, put out all the time. Last I checked we need power 24/7, and no you can’t use batteries either.
So build more dams!
“Land use point clarification, (I hope).”
Sorry … Christmas isn’t here yet.
All your examples apply when I use government land for the purpose of selling things to OTHER PEOPLE. This company uses government land for the purpose of selling something BACK TO THE GOVERNMENT. Third parties are not involved.
(Well … Except that Nevada Power is buying Renewable Energy Credits generated by the project. This will allow them to operate more smelly, dirty, water-wasting, strip-mine generating coal fired plants. That should make you happy!)
Do I charge the guy mowing my lawn rent while he’s on my property? Maybe if he uses my lawn mower, I’ll get a cheaper deal. That’s exactly what the Air Force is getting — a cheaper deal. And quite a bit cheaper. You didn’t comment on how much money they’re saving!
(And you know they’re not going to use all that land for houses anyway. They will either do something like this with it … or nothing at all.)
This probably works for Nellis because their peak usage is at the same time that they can generate power. And avoid the requirement to build another smelly, dirty, water-wasting, strip-mine generating coal fired plant to handle a higher daytime peak usage.
But you seem committed to the idea of more and more (and more) power generation. Do you think maybe we might work just a little bit on turning off a few lights as well?
Turn off lights and as well turn off some baby making machines and open boarder policies, as well! Cuz that is onel source of the problem.
Right after the 1980 census our country hit 200 million, in 04 or 05 we hit 300 million. Yet I’d bet that in most locations overall pollution is down from 1980 levels. All the while adding more sources and greater demand for such.
How is it possible we can add that many more people and yet NOT create as much pollution?
Dan, really you seem to have missed my point that I do think is a good deal, and in fact much more of such needs to happen.
Imagine if we can reduce the current and or projected demand for electricity by just 15%!
“Except that Nevada Power is buying Renewable Energy Credits generated by the project. This will allow them to operate more smelly, dirty, water-wasting, strip-mine generating coal fired plants.”
It is but a fact of life and one you can thank like minded folks for as well. I had nothing to do with energy credits! But I as well know that one reason the folks desiring to build the plant here is so they can capitalize on those same energy credits. See energy credits are the same as carbon credits, they are in reality meaningless as the dirty plants continue to be dirty in places they should not be but with a few bucks passed they can continue to be dirty.
I view them the same as AlGores Carbon credits! You can purchase your way out of pollution to a free mind! Makes it especially nice when you are handing the money back to yourself though don’t it?
BTW there is not very much “strip mining”that goes on in the west for coal.
Oh and the third party here is a private enterprise that stands to gain substantial private profits off of free lease govt lands. The customer really does not matter. The citizens gain is as you pointed out, as well great. Makes it a win win. So in my mind, the private enterprise should at least pay the county it’s annual rent for such land and improvements to it that it occupies to provide the feds with power. Maybe the AF is already doing so, but I doubt it.
Last question for the night. WTF is a renewable energy credit? Another fed subsidy? Is that like paying a farmer to NOT grow something, or paying extra for growing corn for ethanol, or building plants that burn a ton and expel 250 units of the same?
“(And you know they’re not going to use all that land for houses anyway. They will either do something like this with it … or nothing at all.)”
No kidding. As I said it is not eligible for homes. But industrial uses are fine, like the NASCAR track and all that it seems to be attracting. How much is the land worth? Can you purchase 7500 acres of it for a project like this? Would you? With your money?
I provided three sources that are all valid, proven and available sources for 24/7 electricity. Your alternatives are what?
Personally I’d prefer nuke! Clean, efficient, safe, proven. If it were my money such is exactly what I would push for.
I’m not real sure why you think any power plant is a water waster, consumer? yes, but where do they exactly waste water?
I’m sure that paco does a fine job on your lawn for much less $.
Do you kill all responses with links?
First, I don’t have a lawn. I think grass and Southern Utah are fundamentally incompatible. If Paco pays me a visit, we’ll toast each other’s health with a glass of tequila (made from the desert loving Agave plant).
Second, the amount of strip mining depends on where you are. (Although shaft mining has it’s own unique horrors.) From the Desert News, August 6, 2007, “… companies had fully reclaimed less than 6 percent of roughly 400,000 acres mined for coal in the West over the past decade. The report was released on the 30th anniversary of the 1977 Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act.” Parts of Wyoming and Montana are like the surface of the moon.
We could have the same kind of strip mines here. The coal and power companies have tried it before. Here’s a quote from a famous letter (”The Wilderness Letter”) written by author Wallace Stegner, “I spoke with some feeling about the deserts of southern Utah–Capitol Reef, the San Rafael Swell, the Escalante Desert, the Aquarius Plateau. That whole area has been under threat for nearly a decade, and though the Kaiparowits Complex was defeated and the Intermountain Power Project forced to relocate northward into the Sevier Desert near Lynndyl, the Union Pacific and 13 other companies are still pushing to mine the coal in the Kaiparowits Plateau, surrounded by national parks; and a group of utilities wants to open a big strip mine at Alton, four miles from Bryce, and a 500-megawatt power plant in Warner Valley, 17 miles from Zion, and a 2,000-megawatt plant north of Las Vegas, and two slurry pipeline to serve them.”
This is why I, and others, are fighting against the Toquop plant.